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This quote by TheReturnOfPEB@reddthat.com is a good thing to keep in mind. I’m not going to lock it because it genuinely seems to be helping some people. I’m getting reports though, so remember to be excellent to each other please.
this comment section is a memorial of injured experiences.
tread carefully.
Edit: fixed author’s username.
I think the username ends peb not pep
Also you might want to pin your comment to put it at the top
It is at the top for my instance, it doesn’t work on some clients though. Thanks, I’ll fix his name.
Right :) top is variable by user settings, is it pinned and my client just doesn’t respect pins?
That’s what I’ve heard. It probably respects it if you were a sh.itjust.works instance member, but not if you’re not? That’s from people talking about it last time this came up.
Mine is set to sort oldest first and it comes up top for me, though I don’t see any other indication that it’s pinned… It being there is most important though…
I don’t know what to tell you, the mod tools for Lemmy are pretty minor. All I can do as speak as moderator and then it goes to the top for my instance and I think fellow instance members. All bets are off for other users. There’s no way to actually sticky or pin anything to top that I’m aware of other than to speak as moderator as a top comment.
Also just an fyi that my instance and app display it as pinned (slrpnk and connect). Also my default is to sort by top.
Idk what it means, just figured I’d also chime in with some extra data lol
FYI, I see it pinned as a top comment even from my instance
I also see this pinned on my instance.
For every 50 sensitive men out there, there’s a sociopath using a sensitive man persona to try to gain an advantage with women. Believe that men are sensitive, but verify, look for red flags.
My belief is that most women belive they want a sensitive man (after all, that’s the cultural norm), until they actually get one. It’s not super cool IRL unfortunately. Though it’s very rare that women admits this to themselves or others. Usually you can find another believable excuse, that fits with the norm. Abnormal sensitivity often comes with extra baggage.
But there are of course exceptions, and that’s what you should look for if you’re a guy and know you’re on the more sensitive side of the spectrum.
Also don’t fall for any of that “patriarchy” crap that is being spammed here. It’s just a useless concept (or religion). Usually advocated by people with close to zero life experience and a taste for conspiracy theories. And in this context its almost dangerous, because even if it was true, advocates draw the wrong conclusions (like that a less patriarchal society would appreciate sensitive men more). If you want to understand why the world feels injust or that you’ve been fooled, I would start with reading about evolutionary game theory and maybe look at Robert Sapolskys video lectures on human behavior biology on YouTube. Then do some reading on moral realism (and why it’s stupid). If you’re American (sorry) its probably more likely that you are a firm believer in moral realism and that you don’t know much about evolution and biology. Don’t go for Jordan Peterson because he’s just a completely incoherent thinker (or simply put, a quite stupid guy), who’s also into mysticism. Or maybe just read some Peterson and you will hopefully understand. He’s very average, but had good timing I guess.
I’ve been scrolling the comments on this post for a while (longer than I should) and just want to say it is one of the most refreshing collective displays of thoughtfulness and empathy I have read online in far too long. Even the back-and-forwards where people disagree on details or semantics are still overwhelmingly positive, insightful, and respectable on all sides. Another comment here used a brilliant term “merciless insincerity”, and personally I’ve been leaning in a dangerously cynical direction lately about its prevalence. Although I know I am old & resilient enough to not let it capsize me I despise when so much lowest-common-denominator thinking hardens my shell and wallpapers a layer of apathy over who I really am (the angry-yet-optimistic teenager from the 80s/90s who screamed into the void about the climate-emergency, the corrosion of democracy by short-term vote-winning & fundraising, and - more relevantly - the toxicifying impact men and women have had on society - at interpersonal, familial, regional, national, and international scales - by regurgitating thoughtless archetypes and flagwaving in lieu of questioning reality from a fearless standpoint of “open-minded but critical, optimistic but sceptical, confident but fallibilistic”. Discussions like these are some of the very few bastions of antidote left for that cynicism and apathy. What blows my mind is that it is apparent a nontrivial proportion of you who are young (well, much younger than me) are introspecting and expressing yourselves about the subject better than I ever could. When I see the flood of toxic (and idiotically childish) nonsense almost everywhere else, discussions like these truly help bolster a dangerously scarce resource called “hope for the future”, and reinforces for me why about 99.9℅ of my “social online reading” time is spent on Lemmy lately. Gandhi said “be the change you wish to see in the world”, and it’s worth considering that what you are all writing here is a good example of you doing exactly that (even if you hadn’t realised or intended). It adds up, when groups of people give each other the chance to be truly unafraid (instead of “playing tough” - which merely broadcasts how truly afraid someone really is).
This sort of situation is how I knew my wife was/is a keeper. When I was pushed to the point where my negative emotions got too much, she was there for me. She didn’t shy away, but stepped in to help and support me.
In many of my previous relationships, showing negative emotions was lethal to their feelings. I could be happy, or stoic, but never upset or depressed.
On a side note, I had a chat with a trans friend once, regarding emotions. When they transitioned, the intensity of their emotions didn’t change much. However, their ability to contain them plummeted. Basically, men and women feel emotions similarly. Men are just a lot more able to bottle them up.
Super socially awkward and anxious in middle school and high school and was also bullied a ton. Girls would ask me out as a joke, and there’s no good response. If you say yes you’re a dumbass for thinking they’re actually interested in you, if you say no you’re gay and should kill yourself. Combined with being an impressionable teen with incredibly negative self esteem on reddit at a time where something along the lines of all men are rapists was a common sentiment, it really honestly fucked me up. I still am not comfortable with romance and intimacy with women to be honest.
I’ll add to the trauma dump I suppose
Got married in August 2018, the beginning of the next month my dad died of cancer. Obviously I was mourning him and was in a shitty place, my then wife took that as me not being active enough in our relationship and decided to start cheating on me with multiple guys. Once I found out and called her out on it, and also subsequently kicked her out all of a sudden I was the bad guy. I can’t even imagine the mental gymnastics she was hopping through to think that was justified.
Anyway I’ve moved across the country since then and have met who I believe is my soulmate, and things are amazing with her. Just had to go through sewers to find my green pasture I suppose
Consider yourself lucky you didn’t have kids with her
I decided to end a relationship and marriage, after being together for 13 years. For the first time in years I put myself first and realised that I needed to be out of the relationship. Coming out of this has been very difficult and I’ve been struggling with my mental health since.
I started dating again, and have had two horrible experiences where my feelings were just put aside and it really hurt. Both of which ended up with the relationship ending. It’s like I’m not allowed to have feelings or struggle. 😞
Pretty sad comment section, hope y’all get through it.
this comment section is a memorial of injured experiences.
tread carefully.
Thank you for the warning, kind stranger.
I prefer “monument to all your sins” but hard to disagree.
A few years ago I was struggling with body image and was starting to feel worthless and invisible in my marriage. When I tried expressing these feelings to my wife (really just trying to make an emotional connection) her response was curt and to the point: “You don’t have body image issues. I’m the one struggling with my weight.”
And that was it. I’ve never felt more alone in my life.
🫂
Dude, you are looking sharp today. Don’t ever think you can’t look good.
Hey you, you’re attractive. *Hugs
Thx. You legit got a smile out of me.
His hugs can be attractive I guess.
Awwww you should’ve left the comment alone.
I love you!
I think I changed your to you’re. I couldn’t unsee it haha
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Don’t worry bro, you’ll always have us internet homies!
I’m so sorry for all those commenters having sad stories and being told to “man up”. That’s very sad
I might be wrong but I have a feeling that it is a very US influenced problem (so now a very English speaking country problem). Maybe I’m wrong, maybe I’m influenced because it is Internet and there’s plenty of Americans and everything is written in English.
Being born in a French speaking culture, I don’t feel that way. My friends don’t, my non French speaking friends don’t as well. Most men of my generation (millennial) that I have met could express emotions without much problems, and women would not react badly to it, but maybe I’m just lucky.
Of course, there’s always some shitty people, some overly manly jerks or non caring women, but I would say that they represent less than 15% of the population I’ve met in my life (data source: My ass).
So, am I wrong ? Am I influenced by Internet ? How is it for German/Spanish/Portuguese/Italian/Japanese/Whatever cultures ?
And if I’m right, well that sucks. How can we help ?
As a Portuguese (that has also lived in a few other countries in Europe) I would say that it’s more that there is a range of emotions that men can express without that being frowned upon were certain things are still frowned upon if you show them openly (mainly around sadness) though for example openly showing tenderness for your partner or children is expected and even approved (unlike certain other cultures were men are expect to be distant).
Mind you, in some cultures the limits on expression of emotions or selectivity about which emotions you are expected to express is pretty high for both men and women (for example, the Dutch in general tend to refrain from expressing much emotion to strangers) and in some cases there is even such a strong expectation that you react in certain ways that it leads to people in general faking expressions of emotion (the English upper and upper middle classes are pretty big on showing the “appropriate” reaction independently of feeling it).
I would say (from contact with Americans and consuming some American media as well as having lived in England) that the expectations on what emotions people should be expressing are quite different and in England they’re even very much defined by people’s social class (for example, the “English Gentleman” is entirely a façade - all about what you show, not at all about what you think - and occupies the same place in terms of male behaviour expectations for traditional old-money upper class English men as the bossy slightly-angry assertive go-gotter seems to occupy in the US).
So far I generally have seen a tendency for frowning upon grown up men expressing sadness for themselves (though in some countries, not for expressing sadness in empathy with others and their pain, especially if they’re close family) and have also noticed equivalent expectations on the expression of emotion by women (for example, it seems to me that middle and upper class English women have a massive weight of social expectations on them in terms of what they’re expect to show to others - including the emotions they express - in lots of situations, and a lot of it is about reacting with the “appropriate” emotion in some situations even if they don’t feel it)
I don’t think the stigmatisation of men showing emotions is exclusively Anglophone culture. I live in Ireland and there isn’t really a stigma of men showing emotions because of public awareness campaign about mental health for both men and women. But like you said, I’ve met couple of overly manly men jerks and uncaring women, but they’re the ones not worth your time and in tiny minority.
In any case, some cultures have antiquated machismo mindset which is sporadic across the world.
I lost my little brother last year and I would say I already wasn’t a very “manly” man before that but that put things into a new perspective. It was a horrible time but also one that showed me that I chose my friends and family very wisely.
I don’t know if I want to blame the patriarchy or the toxic masculinity that goes with it, but crap. My ex was so not ok when I cried over the discovery of her affair.
She genuinely thought I was trying to manipulate her. I was “too extremely emotional” over it. We were highschool sweethearts, had a kid, and she always talked about how she was disgusted with her own mother for having an affair. Even to the point where she cut off contact with her mother until they ended that relationship.
“No man goes to bed crying because their wife cheated on them or sends nudes to the same guy 4 years later.”
There were red flags earlier than that. “Why are you crying over a movie?” (I always do at emotional bits). “Man up, no one wants to be with someone expresses sadness.”
What’s worse is that it’s pretty much why I don’t bother going out, or have much motivation to get back into the dating game. The patriarchy and toxic masculinity has ruined being human to me. I don’t want to be friends with people who cover up all their emotions. I don’t want to be friends with guys who are clearly over compensating. Then the girls turn around complain about these men being cruel to them, yet state things like this.
Then you have all the men who have this strange belief that they are owed women, and by behaving like that they get the women they are owed. I won’t take part in that. I will not hurt someone else just to satisfy my desires. If that means I don’t date, I’m much more comfortable being a good person and alone.
I also try to bring it up in conversation, and then people turn around and act like my refusal to participate in patriarchal behavior is anti-social. I had one person point out “technically, you aren’t getting any, even though you want it, making you an incel.” I was so shocked. Its not the fault of women I’m not out getting laid. Its men. It’s the patriarchy. It’s this system set up to isolate me because I have an intense emotional awareness.
I’m still surprised people use the old definition of “incel” considering that the connotations changed to “radical misogynist” or “terrorist” in the eyes of the mainstream nowadays. Personally I wouldn’t be caught dead using the term to describe anyone who simply doesn’t get laid. In 2013 it would be fine but nowadays it’s almost slanderous.
you know her better obviously but sometimes you’re too close to see some things so here goes my opinion: I think she didn’t genuinely think you were trying to manipulate her.
I think she knew it was the appropriate response and she was the bad person so instead of facing that situation and losing the upper hand she thought she could use toxic masculinity to manipulate you to feel bad about yourself as a way to take the heat off of herself.
“you’re overreacting”, “you’re being too emotional” these are very common tactics that men use on women all the time. it’s just that it has the added toxic masculinity aspect when the roles are reversed.
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did you not read anything before or after that quote? we were already talking about a woman doing it. this is me talking about, in response to their comment about whether it’s about toxic masculinity, that it is done the other way all the time as well, and this way has the added layer of toxic masculinity.
now I haven’t added anything to my original comment but this is what you missed.
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That… Actually makes more sense and a thought I was trying to avoid. I know she said a lot of things where she said things to avoid feeling like the bad guy. Unfortunately for her, cheating on your marriage doesn’t have a defense.
The patriarchy is a system, and it’s both men and women who promulgate it
Then it shouldn’t be called “patriarchy”.
that’s not how things work. some prisoners helping the guards doesn’t suddenly put them at the same position in a prison.
I’m glad your ex is an ex. I believe it’s experiences like yours that highlights how sexism goes both ways. My heart goes out to you.
It only goes one way: from people using gender stereotypes to manipulate others to the victims.
The fact that you can manipulate any gender while being any gender logically follows.
“My ex cheated on me and rubbed my feelings in the dirt. How can I blame men for this?”
You can’t, if you think that women have any agency of their own lmao
My friend, I am so sorry you went through that. I understand it is incredibly hard to get over a betrayal coupled with an attack like that, but I know you can do it. Let yourself breathe and take your time but when you’re ready, there is a whole world of love out there for you.
There are so many people who will cherish the exact part of you that she took for granted. It is easy to go through something like that and come to the conclusion that you should stop feeling. I hope you don’t.
As for people saying you’re an incel… I literally have no advice other than no longer talking to them. There are people in marriages who are “involuntarily celibate”. This could become a rant about the awful nature of even the term “incel” but I think that would be a waste.
I hope you continue to show your strength by refusing to hide your vulnerability.
Thank you. That means a lot. I guess that’s the part I’m most uncomfortable with - why is expressing emotion seen as vulnerability? It’s one of our most effective methods of communication, particularly of empathy.
A lot of people are deathly afraid of self reflection, of thinking about themselves, about their own behavior and how it affects others. Because if you reflect on it, you might come to the conclusion that you have to change something about yourself. And that is hard work, that a lot of people simply don’t want to do (which I think is the reason for many things going wrong in the world). Being able to express emotion is a sign of the ability to self reflect, to be aware of how one feels and being able to communicate that. In a way it makes people aware of their own shortcomings, which is why they want to avoid it.
I think that maybe a different way to look at it would be to ask: why is vulnerability a bad thing? Everyone has emotions. Everyone is impacted and affected by things. To use your situation as an example - your partner betrayed you. You SHOULD be vulnerable to that. The fact that they can’t fathom having that level of vulnerability, to the point that they claimed you were trying to manipulate them, is the problem. That kind of emotional invulnerability is what leads people to do the kinds of things they did.
I truly believe that being vulnerable in front of someone, especially when they have hurt you so much, is strength. Showing someone how much they hurt you is really hard. Find people you can be vulnerable with. They’re out there.
