Fallout London is whinging but the real loser is the Fallout 4 Script Extender mod, upon which so many other mods relied.
Fallout London release or no, this has broken a massive number of mods for Fallout 4 that relied on the Script Extender.
That’s actually the bigger story here, that Bethesda declined to communicate with the modders who made the backbone of a lot of other mods.
From the Fallout 4 Script Extender home page:
The 2024-04-25 Fallout 4 update (1.10.980 and later) has broken F4SE and the rest of the native code modding scene similarly to Skyrim’s “Anniversary Edition” patch. I am working on an update and cannot currently offer a timeline for its availability, nor whether there will be any critical technical issues that would block an update. Do not email with questions.
Fixing the script extender itself won’t take that long as it doesn’t need to hook that many functions (although depending on how much free time people have and whether there are any surprises, it could still take longer than most people expect). Fixing all the mods that depend on it will take much longer, as between them, they hook lots more functions than the script extender itself, and with this update, it’s not just a case of most functions being the same, but at a slightly different address (as was typical with creation club updates, which tools could help with), but instead lots of functions have changed slightly due to using an updated compiler, and lots of functions have been inlined differently (so instead of just existing once, they get copied into every function that uses them, and then optimised differently in each place based on the surrounding code).
The solution that Skyrim players came up with was to downgrade to older versions. For example, Skyrim SE mods are all permanently version 1.5.97 supported. This can be done manually via the Download Depot commands in the Steam Console which is accessed by typing steam://open/console into the Windows “Run” prompt, or alternatively using a Downgrade Patcher mod which ironically also has to be updated for every new version.
So what I’m understanding from reading everyone’s outrage and input on this, is that Fallout London may or may not come out because of this, but more importantly, just wait a little while after the update to try out mods, just like every other Bethesda game update?
Little while could be a long while for some mods and maybe never for others. I wouldn’t be surprised if some mod developers don’t go back and fix it if they had moved on to other projects. These mods will be years old and anything that uses the script extender will have advanced features to it so they’re not a 3 minute quest mod using only existing assets found in the game itself.
Yeah this is the likely outcome. Happens all the time, tons of great old Cyberpunk broke with 2.0 and will probably never get updated for example.
I made a tutorial on reverting to 1.5.97 Skyrim SE like a month ago because it breaks again with every new update, and they STILL update it pretty frequently.
Nobody liked that.
They did this to Skyrim too. Breaking mods in decade old games is ridiculous
And I was just considering acquiring f04 to play around with mods
Oh well
Bethesda was under no obligation to talk to these mod devs beforehand. But it sure makes them look bad. As a recent comparable, Concerned Ape was open and communicative with all the mod devs before releasing his latest patch for Stardew Valley, a game that is just about as old as Fallout 4.
Bethesda has become a literal laughingstock at this point in time and it’s just funny to point at them every time they rack up another L.
They had no obligation, but there was no reason they couldn’t take the minimal effort and put out a blog post saying that the update would break mods. The modding scene is the only thing keeping Bethesda’s games relevant (except New Vegas, but that’s not really Bethesda’s achievement).
The modding scene is the only thing keeping Bethesda’s games relevant
The recent Fallout series is probably doing a good job.
The modding scene has been bailing Bethesda out for 20 years. You’d think the company would have learned something but nope.
They’ve learned something. They learned that they can be as shitty as they want to be, and still the modders will bail them out. I trust this move now will also change nothing in that regard.
Every single update breaks mods that rely on a script extender because it changes the game’s binary.
Those compatibility issues were always quickly rectified. The last time a script extender was borked to the point where the developer had to make an announcement was Skyrim AE.
If all they do is add more Creation Club content, all that happens is the functions people are hooking end up the same, but at different addresses. After the first few Creation Club updates, tools were made to automate mapping old addresses to new ones, and most script-extender-based mods could be made to work with just an Address Library update, which said which new addresses to use.
This is not that kind of update. The compiler version and settings used have changed, so functions, even ones that do the same thing, end up with different machine code at different addresses. This means a lot of mods will need making from scratch, and a lot of mods will need lots of work tracking down which functions need hooking now and how to do it even if there’s still stuff that’s salvageable.
Some people are conveniently forgetting this.
Yes, but $.
I’ll have to watch the BBC interview. The way the article is worded makes it sounds like they’ve been in communication with Bethesda while creating Fallout London.
There’s actually a comment to the effect that they had zero communication with Bethesda, but still wish they had been given earlier notice.
That’s the kicker lol. They didn’t communicate with Bethesda but expect Bethesda to communicate with them.
Yeah but what expectation could they have had that they’d need to communicate with Bethesda in the first place? The game’s been “complete” for several years at this point, and IIRC Skyrim Special Edition (the Skyrim version of what happened here) was both announced in advance and released as a separate game, so mods that weren’t getting updates could still function. In light of that, it seems reasonable for the developer to expect advance warning at least in the form of a press release prior to the update being made available. Should they have reached out every week asking whether Bethesda had any plans to update a 10-year-old game?
In light of that, it seems reasonable for the developer to expect advance warning at least in the form of a press release prior to the update being made available.
The modder said it themselves. It will take time for them to check the 4 years of work to see if it still function. At this point, no matter when Bethesda drop the update, they will complaint that it break their mod. This has been going on since the launch of FO4 where every time bethesda update the game, it break the mod, people complain about it, some straight out announce they won’t fix it until the final update. It’s nothing new.
IMO that was super sudden.
Usually these things come with a lot of wind up, and I say this as a consumer.
Even without the context of this mod drama, I did a double take when I heard about the new stuff because its release date was so soon from the announcement
To play devil’s advocate, it’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t. You can’t make an omlette without breaking eggs, and changing the game so much doesn’t seem like something that wouldn’t do anything to mods. Then - who should they inform? There is no “king of mods”, there is a ton of people making shit. What should they do? Open source to people who aren’t in the company? Give them the patch early? If they promised well in advance, that the patch was comming, priorities could have changed from “patch a years old game to new consoles” to “put out fires in the newest installments”. And people would be mad about that too, or expecting the patch to drop any second, when it was half a year away. Also, what good would saying “ayo, we’re making a patch that’ll break your shit completely” do? Having that info doesn’t change what happens to the mods, and nobody will stop a game update going forward with the arguments of “it’ll break mods”
How about just not “updating” a finished game?
It wouldn’t be the first time, the SKSE team for Skyrim was in contact with Bethesda before Special Edition came out.
It was surreal watching BBC report on a game mod. I saw the thumbnail ‘Fallout London Delay’ with the BBC logo and thought there was a terrorist attack or something.
Every single time this happens, people act like its the first time. Game updates -> Script Extender breaks -> Mods reliant on it break too. Every. Single. Time.
For a company that relies 100% on modders for their games, you’d think they’d have an actual modding API built into their games by now.
There’s a pretty extensive API, capable of more than most games that advertise modding support, but it can’t do literally everything anyone could think of, so people reverse engineer the game engine to make it possible to do even more things (hence it being called a script extender rather than the modding API). It’s the mod reliant on reverse engineering the executable that break, not the ones using the modding API.
“This thing they announced for last year, then pushed back to this year and released to coincide with a massively hyped TV show was a complete surprise to us.” Is that really FO:London’s stance? I mean, I feel for them that it sucks, but to call it a surprise feels straight up disingenuous.
I made sure to download my copy of FO4 from GOG since it hasnt updated yet. Shame London won’t release on GOG (who will be hosting it) still while they work on fixing it for the new version.
I’m disappointed in myself for buying FO4 recently.
If you just bought it, just play it. You don’t need mods.
Am I the only person who never installed a single mod for any Bethesda game?
you’re missing out hundreds and thousands of awesome fan made content, there’s even entire fan made dlcs
Don’t forget the hundred-hour-long minigame of “Which order do these mods need to load in so they don’t break again?”
Modding is a hobby, and just like other hobbies, tinkering is part of the fun.
That automated settlement mod for FO4 single handedly rekindled my interest in the game.
I’m not building one more goddamn water purifier for you lazy bastards 😤
… Unless I see you have a slight shortage in your build plan
Agree with whay the other person said. Mods for these games are incredible, often better than the core game. Definitely do it
Weird flex
Not a flex, just find it astounding to know how good the original games were and for people to say they suck without mods. I see that a lot.
Yeah probably
Nah, I’m right there with you.
BGS: because fuck you, that’s why.
Can’t help but feel for the developers here. I get that Bethesda has no responsibility to keep 3rd party Devs updated, but surely someone on the team would have noticed the potential for community engagement and worked with those putting the time and effort into the IP.
deleted by creator
It sucks that this was the outcome as it’s going to require a ton of work from the modders, but to expect that a major publisher would involve the unofficial modding community in the release of official patches feels insane, even if they do have a sizable following.
In fact, I prefer it this way. I want the publisher to keep their fingers out of what the modders do as much as possible. Things are their best when the publisher is ignorant of their work. Less chance that the Eye of Sauron that is their legal department starts checking over mods for potential copyright lawsuits
I get this project is a big deal for some folks but having a hard time accepting the argument that I shouldn’t get a better visual/overall game experience because of a mod I’ll never play and their apparent lack of communication with Bethesda. They just expected to be that high of priority? Am I reading this wrong?
Edit: reading through comments I’m a little more sympathetic to modders writ large than I am this team specifically but I get the frustration. Bethesda could’ve done everyone a solid and given a little heads up. Still, it sounds like this project has been massive in scope and basically any changes were going to cause them issues so that’s worth considering here too.
One route might be to push out a new release for a month or something on a beta branch so that modders can see what breaks and provide some time to fix it prior to it being pushed out to everyone.
Take longer to get updates out, but reduce windows where mods are broken.
No, this is a bad idea because it makes too much sense.
It would’ve shaved one month off their currently undetermined new release date it sounds like.
They’re saying this will take more than 2 months. They’re upset because it effectively undoes a lot of their work, which sucks, but that was always going to be the case unless bethesda went out of their way like a year ago to tell them what was coming. And remember, these guys aren’t even in the creator club or in any way communicating with Bethesda. I just think it’s a little unreasonable to be so independent while expecting Bethesda to anticipate their very specific needs.
I wish Bethesda did and maybe I’m being too generous but idk. Just not really sure I am 100% sympathetic to their plight here.
Or they could just keep the legacy endpoints intact while still adding new features.
So, I’m not saying that I agree with them slagging on Bethesda here. Hell, they haven’t even released their mod yet. Doesn’t break things for their players.
But there is legitimately an issue where Bethesda pushes out an update and mods break. They have talked to a few of the very core mod creators early before to help alleviate breakage, but it can still leave mod-using players with a broken environment for some time.
Obviously, Bethesda’s primary responsibility is to people playing vanilla, the stuff that they release.
But there are a lot of modders and people playing with mods, especially a decade after release.
Some of it is just a hard technical problem. There’s gonna be some degree or breakage at updates.
But I think that it’s also true that there are a few things that Bethesda could do to help alleviate the breakage beyond what they have.
Plus, you know, even aside from mods, doing a beta branch does have some benefits. Lets Bethesda find out about some bugs before they push an update to everyone. They won’t catch everything with internal testing.
Like I said in my edit, I’m not entirely defending Bethesda here. I’m just trying to look at this case specifically and not let their entire history color it, as difficult as that may be. FOLON is somewhat turning this into a blame game, where I don’t think anyone’s really at fault except arguably Bethesda in that specific case.
Even with all of that in mind, Bethesda should have been in better communication with modders. There’s no doubt here. They are critical part of the overall success and staying power of their games.
From a business/PR standpoint, Bethesda missed a great opportunity to regain some rapport with the community post-Starfield
Considering mods, whether you like it or not, are a massive reasons for these games’ lasting appeal, yeah I’d consider it a big deal. You may not use mods, and hey good for you, but the billions of downloads from Nexus mods solely for these games in particular shows that many others do.
Regardless, ignoring all of that, the Skyrim Script Extender Team was in contact with Bethesda before Special Edition released, giving them time to work on an SE version for when the day came. So it was perfectly reasonable for the Fallout Script Extender Team to expect the same.
I agree FSET got done dirty
accepting the argument that I shouldn’t get a better visual/overall game experience because of a mod I’ll never play
I’d be surprised if they’d do something substantial. They only do that to keep paid DLCs and mods afloat.
I just received the update and the graphics are much better in the XBox. Everything is much more smooth.
Probably the fps bump, which could’ve been done ages ago if they wanted to, and with far less drama. It’s about as simple as ticking a box.
And apparently it doesn’t even include graphical improvements. At least on PC.
Probably jack shit compared to the graphical mods that were already out there
And enbs
Not everyone wants to mod the game, though.
I get that but when it comes to Bethesda games the vast majority of people do. And it really sucked what they’ve done to us.
I’m just confused why people are downvoting the person for giving their observation of the update. Should they have lied and said the graphics look worse? Lemmy is so shitty sometimes.
Eh yeah true. That should not have happened. This place is just as toxic as reddit ever was when it comes to shit like this lol. hell look at that weird ass dude calling me entitled for wanting a functioning product to stay that way.
Because this thread is not about the update, it’s about a mod that got fucked over by the update. There’s a thread about the update itself Here
I have found Lemmy to vote more toxic than Reddit ever did. Perhaps it is because of the smaller userbase, or perhaps it is the userbase itself. Who knows.
“what they’ve done to us”
Goddamn the entitlement is dripping off this comment.
Hardly. They’re using us to refer to modders which are thousands of players. How the fuck would you write a sentence that includes a group and mention that they’ve done something that negatively impacted said group?
I really fucking hate how quickly some people on lemmy call others entitled.
Users on Lemmy think another person’s feelings, if those feelings are in any way self-positive, are a direct and personal assault on themselves.
The thought, “You think you’re better than me!?” Has become a core driver of interpersonal interactions
uhh…what? how is that entitled? to want the mods that worked great to just keep working that way?
They broke our mods to introduce more microtransactions. Sure its not the worst thing ever, but its still bad.
Yeah cool but can it still run the genitalia mods?!
Only the genital mods themselves. All the stuff that uses them are broken.
